Saturday, 13 December 2025

Lucia / St Lucy's Day, 13 December

Saint Lucy's Day, also called the Feast of Saint Lucy, is a Christian feast day observed on 13 December. The observance commemorates Lucia of Syracuse, an early-fourth-century virgin martyr under the Diocletianic Persecution. According to legend, she brought food and aid to Christians hiding in the Roman catacombs, wearing a candle-lit wreath on her head to light her way, leaving both hands free to carry as much food as possible. 

Because her name means "light" and her feast day had at one time coincided with the shortest day of the year prior to calendar reforms, it is now widely celebrated as a festival of light. Falling within the Advent season, Saint Lucy's Day is viewed as a precursor of Christmastide, pointing to the arrival of the Light of Christ in the calendar on 25 December, Christmas Day. 

In Scandinavia, where Lucy is called Santa/Sankta Lucia, she is represented as a woman in a white dress symbolizing a baptismal robe and a red sash symbolizing the blood of her martyrdom, with a crown or wreath of candles on her head.

In Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland, as songs are sung, girls dressed as Saint Lucy carry cookies and saffron buns in procession, which symbolizes bringing the Light of Christ into the world's darkness. (Wikipedia)

 

Not sure if the video below will work for everyone world-wide, but I thought I'd give that a test. (Let me know if it works!) It's this year's (2025) Lucia Morning by Swedish Television (SVT); from Visby on the island Gotland, off the east coast of Sweden. 

It's a 1 hour show, and in Swedish. But of course you can choose for yourself how much of it to watch/listen to. It will give you an idea of the typical atmosphere, anyway.

"Inside the city walls of wintry Visby, this year’s Lucia brings atmosphere and warmth with choirs from Sankta Maria Youth Choir, Voices of Hope, and Gotland Boys’ Choir. In the ruins of St. Karin and Helge And, the Christmas songs ring out, and we also get to enjoy several soloists, the Gotland Wind Quintet, and a children’s choir in the historic surroundings."

    

https://youtu.be/QVc5rAzMQCs?si=toSBG8tjXE-Urfmg

Friday, 12 December 2025

Angels

 



It has become my tradition to put up my collection of Angels for St Lucy's Day (13th Dec), which this year falls on the Saturday before 3rd Advent Sunday. The glass angels in my living room; and the rest in the window of my study. 
 

 

I think I've mentioned before that all these angels have come to me as gifts from friends - I haven't actually bought any of them myself. The porcelain angel to the left is the only one that has been with me from early childhood; the rest have come flying in one by one much later in my life. 

 
 
This song is from one of the Christmas albums that I have on CD. 

Thursday, 11 December 2025

Skywatch Friday

 

Actually it was on Wednesday rather than Friday this week that we "almost" got a glimpse of the sky behind the grey clouds and rain that have dominated the whole week. Not having been out at all for a few days, I grabbed the opportunity for a half hour walk for exercise.

I stopped for a while across the street from the building above, trying to figure out what's going on there. Seemed like some new business is moving into the premises, and doing some changes. Actually, one of the signs outside suggested that it's an old business moving back to the area where they once started out, thirty years ago. The name didn't ring a bell with me though, so no idea what kind of business. Nor do I know if they're moving back to the exact same building or just the same complex. Or what exactly all those triangular thingies in front are for...

As I had no errands and didn't need to carry anything, I took both my walking poles on this walk for a change - mostly just for the extra exercise (for arms/shoulders). We're still having very mild weather. No risk of icy spots just now - but the risk of slipping on a mess of wet leaves is not over...

Crossing the old cemetery on my way back home. 
(Imagine a constant background sound of leaf-blowers at work...)

I'll be linking to Skywatch Friday 

Tuesday, 9 December 2025

Winter Idyll vs Reality

 

This is a textile Christmas wall hanging that my mother made back in my childhood. I had to find a new place for it this year, because putting it up where I used to have it requires use of a stepladder + quite a bit of "fiddling" - which I don't feel up to this year. Luckily I managed to find an alternative space for it.

I used to have it on display at the top of the door leading into my study:

Photo from 2022


This year it hangs on the back of a bookshelf in the "dressing room" corner of my study, where it was easy to put it up without need of a ladder. The downside is that I don't see it from the living room, as I did when I had it on the door. But on the other hand, I can now get up close to it at eye level to look at details...

 (The combination study/dressing room may seem unusual, but it just so happens that most of my wardrobes are in this room, while I prefer another as bedroom.) 


 

In the "real world" outside my windows there's no snow to be seen. Since Saturday it's been raining more or less constantly - yesterday also combined with weather warnings for strong winds - and I've not been out any further than to the rubbish bins at the corner of the building a couple of times. (Luckily I also haven't really needed to go anywhere, though!) 

Monday, 8 December 2025

Macramé

 


Once upon a time, back in the late 1970s, I took an evening class in macramé. I think it was only one term (or possibly two). Combined with working as a secretary in the daytime, it turned out not the best leisure activity for my neck and shoulders. 

I can only recall making three bigger items - two wall hangings (besides this red one, one of similar size in some kind of silky brownish yarn), and a plant hanger. (The plant hanger I think I later gave to my mum who had a better place for it.)

The red wall hanging has become part of my Christmas decorations. From December until mid February or so, it hangs on the door between my hall and my kitchen. 

 

Macramé is a form of textile produced using knotting (rather than weaving or knitting) techniques. 

One of the earliest recorded uses of macramé-style knots as decoration appeared in the carvings of the Babylonians and Assyrians. 

 It was long crafted by sailors, especially in elaborate or ornamental knotting forms, to cover anything from knife handles to bottles to parts of ships. 

 In England, it was introduced at the court of Mary II in the late 17th century, and in the Victorian era it adorned most homes in items such as tablecloths, bedspreads and curtains.

Macramé's popularity faded, but resurged in the 1970s for making wall hangings, clothing accessories, draperies, plant hangers and other furnishings.

Source: Wikipedia 


 

Sunday, 7 December 2025

Penpals

 


We're having a very grey and damp 2nd Advent weekend here in south-west Sweden. I managed to get out for about half an hour on Friday, but the rest of the weekend I've been staying in. 

Wondering what to blog about today, my eye fell on the three Christmas cards that have arrived so far, and which I have put on display in the bookshelf in my living room. They come from three different countries (England, Canada and the US); and all three are from Penfriends whom I've known since Before Blogging. 

I've had penfriends ever since I was 10-11 years old. I'm still in touch now and then with the very first one in Sweden. Few long letters these days, but we still always send Christmas greetings, and birthday cards. We first met through an ad in some comics magazine (I forget whether it was her ad or mine) way back in 1966 - i.e. 60 years ago next spring. We only met once in real life, I think in 1978 or 79. She lived (and still lives) further north in Sweden, and I had been up even further north than that to visit another friend, and going back down south by train, I also visited my penfriend for a couple of days. 

We both had several more penpals; and for a while, long before the internet, it was popular among letter-writing friends around the world to also pass around something called "friendship books", as one way of finding new people to write to. And I'm still in touch with some people around my own age abroad, whom I got to know that way.

One of them is Karen in England, who sent me the Christmas card with the London bus above. I just checked, and we've been penpals since 1985, i.e. 40 years. Fewer long letters exchanged these days, but always Christmas cards, and sometimes other postcards in between. We're also friends on FB; but she does not blog, and I doubt she reads mine. 

The Snowman card to the left above came from Heather in Canada. We met in person in Sweden in the summer of 1985, and have kept in touch by letters/cards on and off since then. (Nowadays mostly Christmas cards + FB.)

The other Snowman card is from Debra in the US (and came with a letter). I think she is probably the last one whom I got to know via one of those "friendship books" passed on via penpals - and also the last one with whom I am still in touch solely by snail mail, and not at all on the internet. Her first letter to me is from Sept 2000 - so 25 years by now.

As I have mentioned before a few times, in connection with various "blogoversaries", it was also a penpal in Australia (since 1985) who first inspired me to start blogging. She mentioned (Christmas 2008) that she had started a blog; and when I went to check that out, I found that to be able to  comment, I had to create a Blogger account of my own. And once I had done that, I got curious to explore further how it all worked... So ended up starting my own first blog in January 2009. And while R didn't keep hers going for all that long (it was mostly to do with a crafts project), I'm still blogging away! (R & I are still in touch, too, but now mostly via FB.)

Come to think of it, the chain of contacts leading to why I'm sitting here right now, writing this, can literally be traced back all the way to my very first Swedish penfriend  - because she was the link between me and a penfriend in England (nowadays living in Australia), who in turn became the link between me and the Australian penfriend who became my link to blogging!


Friday, 5 December 2025

2nd Advent Weekend

 

The white orchid in my bedroom window has opened up its first bloom for 2nd Advent.

 And on a small shelf on the wall in my study, I have set up this nativity scene as usual. 
(I see it "at the corner of my eye" wheneven I'm using my computer.)
 


The original set consisted only of the stable, Jesus, Mary and Joseph, and thre three wise men. I have added the other other pieces later from different sources. The oldest one is the camel - I think I got that one in my early childhood from the same old ladies (cousins of my grandmother) who gave me the small nativity scene that I showed in a post last weekend

 

Matthew 2 (NIV)

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

- - -

 ... and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. 12 And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route. 

Wednesday, 3 December 2025

Busy Day/Week

 

I've managed to be quite "busy" lately. First it was the decorating for 1st Advent last week (cf my previous two posts). Then I spent quite a large part of the 1st Advent Sunday writing my Christmas cards to be sent abroad, as I wanted to get those posted on Monday. (Just now it feels like I've been writing about this already? - but I think that must have been as comment on someone else's blog.) Luckily I had enough cards with envelopes left over from previous years - and stamps too. 

So on Monday, I think around 11 am, I went for a walk to the nearest mailbox - which is situated by one of our small local grocery shops, about 10 minutes walk away. (Just now, perhaps more like 15 minutes.) It's one that only gets emptied on weekday mornings - but when I put mine in, I could hear that the box wasn't empty, but probably about half full. So hopefully my cards got sent on their way the same day. I know that the cards within Europe are likely to reach their destinations in just a few days - but sending mail "overseas" is more of a gamble...

That mission accomplished, I went back home and continued to write my cards to be sent within Sweden - which will all be of simple postcard format this year, as that was what I had left in my stash... I won't need to post those for another week or so; but just as well to get them written while I was "in the mood". 

Tuesday was laundry day (afternoon) for me, plus cleaning the bathroom. A combination that tends to keep me busy enough without adding very much else to the mix.  Between my turns down to the basement I usually just watch TV or read.

Today, Wednesday, was set aside for bigger adventures. After having put off an appointment with my dental hygienist twice in November (and some other errands in town as well) - because of my knee making it difficult for me to get anywhere - I decided it was time to test my stamina to "be on my feet" for a while. Not to overdo things, I decided I had better take a taxi to the dentists' to start with, though. From "knee point of view", that was probably a good decision; but it was still another taxi adventure in the sense that most  streets in the city centre are either car-free or one-way - and the driver, speaking broken Swedish, also didn't seem to actually know exactly where the street was (so I had to try to explain!)... In a wide roundabout way he finally did get me there, though! 

The actual appointment with my dental hygienist went smoothly, though. No unpleasant surprises, just routine treatment. 

Not many steps from my dentists' to the main square, where I stopped to take a photo of the big Christmas tree:   

 

 My next errand was to my favourite Tea Shop, situated right by the square. (They also sell coffee, but I only drink tea.) Not having been into the city centre for a couple of months now, nearly all my tea caddies at home were empty! So I made both a shop assistant and myself happy by buying no less than six different kinds of tea (100 g of each). (Three black tea blends, one green tea Christmas blend, and two different Rooibos tea blends.)


Just round the next corner, there's the bookshop; and I made a short stop there too, to buy a pocket calendar - and some more Christmas cards, "just in case" (or else for use next year!).

On the same street is my favourite Pharmacy, and I had a loooong list of both prescription medicines and various other stuff that I have been running out of (or almost) over the past couple of months... So that took a while; but now I have stocked up prescription stuff to last me a couple of months at least, plus some other necessities/favourites as well.

So far, so good... Now remained the question of how to get myself (and all my stuff) home. When I made my plans, it had seemed a good idea to take a certain bus from a small square not very far from the pharmacy. It doesn't run all the way to where I live - but then no bus does. But this one would take me to a stop some 15 minutes walk from home; and as I walked that distance back and forth the other week, I counted on being able to manage that. 

What I had not counted on, though, was having to wait nearly half an hour for that bus - because not only had one just left when I arrived at the bus square, but then the next one turned out to be almost 15 minutes late, and over-full (and with a super-stressed driver shouting at everyone!)  However, while waiting I managed to find a bench in a bus shelter to sit on - and then, even more miracously, also a seat on the bus when it finally arrived... (The fact that I was heavily burdened + leaning on a stick may have helped, but I'm not sure!!)  I rode on that bus for two stops, and somehow also managed to get off unharmed (phew!)... And in spite of being rather tired by then, the last 20 minutes walk from that bus stop back home felt almost like a relief compared to the long wait + short bus ride... (In retrospect I'm thinking that "knee and all" it might have been quicker for me to walk the whole way back home from town - but I just didn't quite trust my stamina for that, with a full backpack + an extra bag to carry as well.)  

Anyway, next time I go into town, I don't think I'll try that particular bus again... 

The next thing on my "list" is that I really need a haircut... My hairdresser is in the same street as my dentist - but it just felt too much to try and coordinate that + all the other things on one and the same day. 

Sunday, 30 November 2025

1st Advent Sunday

 

Besides my electric candles in the windows (cf yesterday's post), I also still have my adventsljusstake (Advent candle holder) with four real candles in a row - one for each Advent Sunday - sitting on the table in my living room. These days, I'm rather careful when it comes to trusting myself with real candles, and only light those when I'm going to be sitting still for a while - but on the other hand not feeling so relaxed that I might nod off...! 

I've even contemplated switching to battery candles in this one. But I think that would just look weird - at least the first three weeks, until you can have all four of them lit! 

I know that Germany also have the four candles for the Advent Sundays (but usually in a wreath formation), but I'm not sure how widely spread this tradition ever was - or is - in other countries.

 

Saturday, 29 November 2025

1st Advent Preparations

 

 

The rest of the week since Monday has been rainy, and I have not been out for any more "long" walks. But I have still been "on my feet" quite a lot just pottering about at home...

Tuesday was Laundry Day, and between my turns to the laundry room I also visited my storage space in the basement to collect my Advent decorations. Some readers who have been following this blog for years may recall that I tend to put up my Christmas decorations gradually during December. For 1st Advent, I usually start with switching my kitchen curtains and some other textiles; plus replacing various window lamps around the flat with electric candle holders and stars. This year, because of my injured knee, I decided to abstain from the curtain project, and just keep the ones that I bought back in spring - but exchange the green ribbons for red ones. I did manage to get the window stars up in the kitchen + study without climbing - just using a long grabber.

Ever since I moved to my present flat (17 years ago) I've also been used to having one electric candle holder (each with 7 lights) in each window; which means four of them. I recalled that the one in my living room stopped working some time after NewYear last winter, though. I was hoping that a whole set of new lightbulbs might fix it - but it did not. And even worse: The kitchen one now turned out to have given up as well! 

As I'm no electrician, my skills don't go beyond switching light bulbs - so both those candle holders had to go back down to the storage room, at least for now. Pity, as both those are kind of special and my favourites... 

However... This was also my week for ordering stuff from the supermarket, and they also have quite a lot of Christmas things. So I added two new ones (standard size and design, and not very expensive) to my order. A red one for the kitchen (see the photo above), and a white one of the same model for the living room (below). They arrived with my groceries on Thursday, and thankfully turned out fully functional. A bit smaller than my old ones, but I'll no doubt get used to that. 


The candle holders in my study (above) and bedroom (below) are lower and bow-shaped.

 

 The orchid on the left has decided to spring some new flower buds in time for Advent.

This small nativity scene is simple and made of plastic - but it's been with me nearly all my life! It was given to me in my early childhood by two "old ladies" (as they appeared to me back then), cousins of my maternal grandmother. They worked in a gift shop and used to give me various ornaments for Christmases and birthdays, some of which I still have. And this one has ended up in my "1st Advent box". 

Friday, 28 November 2025

Skywatch Friday - New Moon

 

New moon, Monday 24th November ~ 16:20
(Colours boosted just a little in editing)
 
 
Linking to Skywatch Friday  
 
Did it take long to find me?
I asked the faithful light
Did it take long to find me?
And are you gonna stay the night?
- Cat Stevens -
 

Monday, 24 November 2025

Halfway

 

24 Nov 2025, 14:00

"Believe you can and you're halfway there." 
— Theodore Roosevelt 

We had another sunny November day here, with temperatures hovering around 0'C - but pavements dry and looking "walkable"... I decided to believe myself able to walk at least down to the river and back the same way. But once I reached the bridge, I decided to prolong the walk by crossing that, and walking back along the path on the other side to the next bridge (behind the buildings in the background); and from there up across the old cemetery back home. Which according to my own caluclations should mean that I  managed a walk of at least 1 km. (Only an interim goal; but still worth celebrating!)

Tomorrow is laundry day again, which is likely to keep me busy enough at home. 

The afternoons are very short this time of year...    

Sunrise Today:8:12 am
Sunset  Today:3:36 pm


Sunday, 23 November 2025

November Skies

 

The weather has been "back and forth" a lot this week. From sunny and frosty to the first snow - and then back to rain and thaw. On Friday I had no idea if Saturday would bring more snow, just rain, or a mix. The answer turned out to be just rain, though. And today the snow was gone, the temperature still above freezing point, and the rain had moved on as well - even leaving glimpses of blue sky and sun.

So I decided to try a walk to/in the old cemetery again. I kept to an "inner circle" of paved paths (avoiding the "outer circle" of gravel ones which might be soggy and muddy) - but with that adjustment managed to walk "almost" round the whole place, for the first time since my knee injury. Was out for about 40 minutes. I'm probably still only walking at about half speed compared to back in summer, though - which is something I have to take into account when setting my "goals". 

The next few days likely to keep hovering around 0'C again - so "one day at time".  

 

Saturday, 22 November 2025

Weekend Reflections

 

Friday sunset reflected in the windows of a nearby building. 
(If I hadn't known it was the sunset, I'd have been seriously worried!!) 

Linking to: Weekend/Street Reflections # 252

 

After that spectacular show last night, the sun went into hiding again, though; and today has only offered grey skies and rain, while the snow has kept melting away. I have not set foot outdoors, but neither have I got much"done" indoors. In the afternoon I intended to spend some time reading - lying on my bed with myself and the Kindle both comfortably propped up. Woke up some 2-3 hours later and found that I seemed not to have read more than a couple of pages before I dozed off...

Friday, 21 November 2025

Hello Winter

 Looking back in my photo archives, I see that last year too, we had the first snowfall around the same time in November. 

Photo from Nov 22, 2024

Today (Nov 21, 2025) was also a sunny winter day here, with a thin layer of white on the ground, and a few degrees below 0'C - neither slushy nor particularly icy. As the weather will probably turn more unreliable again tomorrow (a mix of rain and snow to be expected) I decided to take advantage of the here and now. So after lunch I donned my winter boots and coat etc again, and went out for my usual Friday "recycling walk" - and from the recycling bins, back a different way, including a stop at the small corner shop where I sometimes buy some extra fruit & vegs between my regular home deliveries from the supermarket. (Bananas and a cucumber on my list today.) A couple of months ago, hardly worth mentioning... But today, besides being my first proper walk this season with snow on the ground, it was also the first time since my unfortunate fall back in early October that I felt up for combining two errands on the same walk. I was out for about 45 minutes, and even if in total it was still a shorter distance than 1 km, it felt like progress.

No photos from today's walk, as I was busy enough just watching my steps, and holding a walking pole in one hand and a bag in the other... But later, back home, I took this "skywatch" sunset photo from my balcony:

Skywatch Friday

 

Snoopy - Happy first day of Winter! ❄️ | Facebook 

 

Thursday, 20 November 2025

Braving the Snow

 

My winter Moomin mug

 Time to try and overcome the fear of snow... 

 
 
... put on proper winter boots with studded soles... 

... and get out there...

... even if just to the dustbins, plus a few steps extra! 

(Cold winds blowing, so not tempting to stay out long...) 

Back in - after my five minutes or so of "braving it" - I got Barbie and Skipper to dress for winter, too. Skipper is wearing a pair of winter boots that I made for her earlier in the autumn, from two fingers cut off from a worn-out glove. And if anyone is wondering what it is that she is holding under her arm, that's a little yarn gnome that I found under the sofa earlier in the autumn, and who must have been hiding there since last Christmas - if not longer... I entrusted him to Skipper to look after until this Christmas, and she's taking her job seriously. 

Wednesday, 19 November 2025

First Snow

 

~ 10:50 a.m.

~ 2:30 p.m.

As weather forecasts predicted already last week, we had the first snow here today. Not welcomed by me - but I was glad I had decided already before the weekend to take the weather warnings seriously, and postpone an appointment with my dental hygienist - again. (Had already put it off once, because of my knee injury.) "Whether the weather" will be any better in another two weeks remains to be seen... But today I just stayed in! 
 
Whether the weather be fine,
Or whether the weather be not,
Whether the weather be cold,
Or whether the weather be hot,
We'll weather the weather
Whatever the weather,
Whether we like it or not!
 
 
(anonymous British poem)

Sunday, 16 November 2025

Frosty Shadow Shot Sunday

 

Frosty weather this weekend. Yesterday the roofs and lawns stayed powdered with frost all day, and the sun also seemed to go to bed unusually early, so I ended up just staying in. Today was a bit sunnier, and after lunch I decided to at least venture out as far as the dustbins (at the corner of my building) - and take it from there. I stayed out for about 20 minutes walking (slowly) along sunny parts of the street + nearby paved footpaths. The bridge leading over to the old cemetery is always a tricky spot as soon as frost hits, though, and that turned out to be true today as well. So I decided not to cross that. 


 After all the rain lately, some of the nearby lawns have sprouted (if that's the word?) lots of brown mushrooms, of unknown kind to me. When I was out on Friday, I first mistook them for wet leaves - until I realised that some of them really were too thick!

Nov 14, 2025

Today I noted that some mushrooms had been "frosted"! Not sure I've ever seen that before!

Nov 16, 2025

 


 PS. I don't think there is a "Shadow Shot Sunday" linking site any more; it just popped up in my memory when snapping a couple of shadows on a Sunday...

Saturday, 15 November 2025

Knee Sleeves and Algorithms

 


When I emptied my postbox yesterday, I was happy to find a speedy delivery of a pair of bamboo knee compression sleeves that I had ordered; hoping that they might be a softer alternative to the synthetic ones I've been using so far (not around the clock, but when for example out walking). I've not wanted to wear those directly on my skin though, so have either worn them with a thin tube bandage underneath, or on top of cotton leggings. 

I've also experimented with using the cut off upper parts of a pair of super elastic 'diabetic' bamboo knee-highs (saved from an old pair where the feet got worn out) over a piece of tube bandage on the knee; as a lighter kind of support (at home and in the night). 

The bamboo sleeves I ordered now turned out to be thicker and far from as elastic as the diabetic socks. But I tried keeping them on over night, and they did remain surprisingly comfortable. 24/7 use may not be recommended with these either, but I think they'll be a useful "middle" alternative to the others. 

As soon as you start searching for anything like this online, though (and even more as soon as you actually order something) - it seems to trigger like half a million internet algorithms (for example on Facebook) to say to themselves: "Oh, look, she's interested in bamboo knee bandages! Hooray! Surely she'll not just want one pair! She'll want at least half a dozen - no, make that a full dozen... And all from different companies..."

And the thing with these bamboo knee bandages sems to be that no matter what company or distributor I check out, and whether they claim that the bandages are available in sizes from XS to XXL, or boldly state that "one size fits all"; and whether the sleeves are kept in stock somewhere locally (and may land in your postbox in a couple of days), or shipped directly to customer from China (in which case delivery is more likely to take two weeks) - I notice that every image of them looks the same. They all seem to be in grey and white, with almost exactly the same pattern. Just possibly marked with different labels.

Which makes me imagine one gigantic bamboo-knitting factory somewhere in China, producing billions and billions of these, and shipping them out to an endless number of retailers all over the world, who in turn do their best to sell them on to billions of people with knee problems... (Some of us possibly ordering some from different companies to compare - only to find them all the same??) 

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